2010-04-14, 11:28 AM
The mousse spread nice on the skin (the glyercin probably helped) and started sinking in right away, the lotion went on kinda whitish and took a little longer. I am using natramulse in my next one to see how that sinks in maybe on its own to start with and then with panthenol and caledula because I want them in my final face lotion/cream.
2010-04-15, 10:36 AM
tricia your whipped lotion sounds really nice! i will add glycerin next and panthenol, hopefully it will improve the feel of mine!
about olivem 800.. the official brochure ( http://www.quetzalquimica.com/images/olivem80026-07-2007.pdf ) says that a "low viscosity stabilising polymer" is required to stabilize hyperfluid lotions, and the best results have been obtained with the combination:
Microcrystalline cellulose, Carboxymethyl cellulose 1.5%
Xanthan Gum 0.15%
however, one of the formulas provided at the end, that has about 23% oil phase, does not include those, but does have Carbomer and Cetearyl Sulphate in the water phase.. sooo... i think for lotions that are not hyperfluid, where a thickener is used, that stabilizing polymer may not needed.. i also see here: http://www.in-cosmetics.com/ExhibitorLibrary/437/olivem800_2007_2.pdf a recipe that includes oliwax LC, but only includes the Microcrystalline cellulose, Carboxymethyl cellulose but not the xanthan gum..
update regarding the stability of my liquid lotion:
i've put a bit in a small tall container to easily see if there is any separation.. there is.. the bottom part looks a bit more whiteish and less thick than the top part, which looks a bit thicker and a slightly off-white colour (due to the colour of the oils?).. there is a distinct line at the separtion between the top and the bottom (reminds me of non-homogenized milk/cream)
if i shake it up, it very quickly/easily homogenizes and then it takes several hours before the full separation happens again.. so i guess yea, it's not stable.. but at least i don't get a film of oil at the top, and the two phases reincorporate very readily.. i can deal with this..
however, i'm still not too pleased with the feel.. it could definately be improved.. here's the changes i what i want make:
- increase oils from 12% to 18% or so
- add panthenol (1%?) and glycerin (2%?)
- add lecithin as a coemulsifier (both for the humectant properties, and to see if it improves stability of emulsion)
will any of those things make it more silky/glidy? are there any oils that i can incorporate to increase the glide? also.. will the lecithin thicken the lotion much (or at all)?
2010-04-15, 11:45 AM
I have not tried the panthenol yet Elena I'm thinking for doing it today, my sister was coming over from scotland and her flight was cancelled because of the volcano eruption in iceland all flights are grounded so I'll find something to do now. Anyway I'm off track here, Ok i remember reading somewhere the lecithin was very compatable with Oilive oil PEG7 so I'm thinking maybe it will be good in Olivem too. Is your panthenol liquid or powder? The glycerin does add slip (well it did for mine) since i made a basic lotion without it before I added the second time) I've seen most recommended at 2-5% but I know people use more but I wouldn't I used that for the humectant too, don't think I'll be using it in my facial ones though, I'll have an alternative I think. Lecithin is added as 0.2 to 2% according to most I have read, so maybe you could try somewhere in the middle to start or at the lowest and see how it holds up?
2010-04-15, 3:19 PM
hi tricia, my panthenol is liquid, that should make it easy to add to the formula.. that's good to know about lecithin and olive oil PEG7! also, i was thinking i'd calculate how much lecithin based on the HLB system.. re the glycerin, i read somewhere that too much will be bad because it will draw water from the skin, so that's why i was thinking about 2%..
2010-04-15, 3:31 PM
I agree with the glycerin Elena I only used it at 2% also I think it gave it enough slip for sure. The lecithink/Olive Oil PEG7 I am sure it was on The Herbarie. I remember seeing it when I was looking at all the different emulsifiers I could experiment with, and that is where I got most of them.
Good luck, I'll let you know how I get on with the Natramulse too.
2010-04-17, 3:38 PM
I quickly skimmed this thread (it's long) so I might have missed some things...
I've been playing around with Olivem 1000 and here are my thoughts. I'm trying to make a moisturizing milk and my test batches have been similar to yours. 10% rice bran oil, x% emulsifers and y% water = 100%
At 2% Olivem 1000, it held and emulsified with a running texture. However it took forever to sink into my face and body. I had to rub a lot for the white residue to disappear.
At 4%, the white residue is still there but it takes less time rubbing for it to disappear. It's not running like 2% but it's still very light. I find the white residue and time it takes to fade comparable to the other emulsifers I tired; Natramulse, xyliance and BTMS at 4%. I tired these emuslifers at 2% too and same problems with Olivem at 2%.
I wouldn't call either of my batches a milk lotion. The Olivem probably has too much of the thickening ingredient for it to be milky. I'm comparing to the Japanese and Korean brands milk lotions. They are thin like water and sinks into your skin in a flash. It's probably best to make an emulsifer from scratch to get the milky consistency.
When I wax mixing up my Olivem batches I found it took forever to cool and thicken up. So I mixed it in the sink filled with cold water. Using the hand held blender gives it a smoother texture.
Also, you mentioned possibly using Cosmocil with Olivem on another post. I tired on my first patch and it made it curdle. I had to switch to Optiphen.
I hope this saves you some time on your test batches
2010-04-18, 11:21 PM
lemontart, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts/experiences with olivem 1000.. i'm very annoyed at the white-ish aspect and having to rub it in so long.. i find it surprising that a higher % of olivem causes the lotion to absorb faster.. i always thought the amount of emulsifier was based on how much oils there are, not just a random number.. also i won't try it with cosmocil, but it's good to know that it doesnt work..
you are right, the olivem 1000 thickens the lotion up a lot.. i obtained a milk consistency using olivem 800, but as i noted, it seems to separate (supposedly because i haven't added a water phase stabilizer).. actually, looking at my test tube now i see that it has separated into 3 layers.. from the bottom up: about 15% very watery look, probably not fully opaque, about 35% looks like milk, and the remaining 50% on the top is thicker-looking and a little off-white..
2010-04-19, 10:16 PM
This is the first time I came across a set ratio for emulsifier to oils. I
2010-04-20, 9:58 AM
Yes, all the literature says a water phase stabilizer is necessary (a gelling agent).. i won't be using one though, at least not anytime soon.. at the moment i don't have any and am not ordering stuff anytime soon.. also i think if i can just shake up the lotion and use it i am okay with that..
with the olivem 800, the consistency is actually like milk.. i will update back to let you know how/if it works in a spray bottle.. i've been busy lately though so i haven't had much time for this
2010-04-20, 3:30 PM
You said you've got Olivem 900 (Sorbitan Olivate)? I think that's the stabilizer in Olivem 1000. So I'm guess it would work with Olivem 800 too. How about throwing in a pinch just to see if it works...
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